Old Library

> -----Original Message-----
&gt; From: Andy Nguyen [mailto:&#97;qn&#64;dev.tivoli<img src=/i/dc.gif border=0 width=35 height=15>]
> Sent: Monday, August 17, 1998 9:28 PM
>
>   I have been mulling this over also.  Did you do-it-yourself or
>   did you use a wiring kit of some sort?

I didn't do it myself, my mechanic did it for me but I studied his
installation and realised how easy it is. I'm going to be improving on his
installation over the next few days.

What he did was he took the stock battery bracket and mounted it
transversely (north-south) in the right rear-most part of the trunk. He got
a 4 gauge wire long enough to reach the trunk from the stock position and
routed it through the rubber grommet in the firewall behind and slightly
below the coolant expansion tank. The wire then travels from there, under
the dashboard, through the plastic cover on the driver's side foot step,
through the speaker board, back to the trunk and then over to the right
side. This wire is only the positive wire and reattaches to the point where
the stock wire goes (you'll see it when you remove the battery). The
negative (ground wire is then attached to a hole drilled next to the
mounting point in the trunk. The stock battery bracket can be remounted in
the trunk using the same holes that are on it. The battery used is a sealed
Optima unit.

The improvements I want to make is to build a battery tray so that the
battery can be located on its side in the drivers side space between the
tail light assembly and the rear wheel well. I have found that this space is
large enough to accept a battery. With this setup, it is my opinion that I
will be further improving the weight distribution of the car since I am
off-setting the weight of the engine which is much heavier than I am (any
thoughts on this)? Besides, having it there means not having the battery in
the way when I load my race tires into the trunk.

One caveat, my mechanic told me that even an Optima mounted on its side will
fail prematurely because the spiral coils will collapse on themselves. This
doesn't make sense to me since the coils are very densely packed together
and since he's been the only person I've spoken to who's said that, I've
decided to go ahead with it. Only time will tell if he's right.

I'll let you know how it goes and take a few pics with my digital cam once I
get it sorted out.

>   Also, have you noticed
>   any degradation in the starter's performance now that the battery
>   is far away?

No degradation at all, in fact the engine starts much quicker than before.
Then again the stock battery was more than 2 years old. Use cable meant for
audio installations. A little more expensive, but better conductivity, and
supposedly longer lasting. Also, the Optima is said to be a very good
battery and that may have played a role in that.

Eugene Oh

In a message dated 12/9/98 6:22:59 PM Mountain Standard Time,
&#99;hris_franson&#64;ulsaker<img src=/i/dc.gif border=0 width=35 height=15> writes:

> Do these have protection for the contacts so that they are not exposed? (I
>  still have the wonderful Autobahn brand replacement battery in my car) With
>  an Optima, my first concern would be that something in the "trunk" might
>  short out and make bad things happen. Obviously the other issues are not a
>  concern.
>  Chris


Protecting the connections would best be done by the battery box for the
Optima or Autobahn battery. The Optima is an excellent battery but so is a new
battery that is paid for <g>

Remember to FUSE  BOTH END OF YOUR WIRES!!!   From the positive terminal of
the battery, and from the positive terminal of the alternator..... this way if
your wiring ever shorts out then you won't have a fire. 
--
For info on: how to subscribe & unsubscribe, the list's tech/how-to
    library, etc.  see:   http://www.panix.com/~aqn/GTI_VR6/gti_vr6_list/

I relocated my battery to my trunk. I know I promised to make some
pictures with installation instructions a *really* long time ago but
since then I've had to modify the installation.

The initial installation was with an Optima battery mounted transversely
(north-south) in the original battery tray in the rear passenger side of
the trunk. If you look at the little space between the right-rear wheel
and the tailight cluster, it was mounted right next to that. This posed
a problem because the fuel tank was inadvertantly punctured by the
tapping screw drilled into the floor. It was a really tiny puncture but
bad enough to make the car smell of gas. I plugged that up and moved the
battery to the space behind the left-rear wheel. The Optima is now
mounted on its side with the top posts pointing toward the front of the
car.

Several reasons why I think this is a better place to mount the battery.

1. The battery does not take up valuable trunk space. It fits neatly
into the little "cubby-hole" and does not intrude into the cargo area.

2. My understanding of corner weighting is that you would want to mount
the battery diagonally opposite of whatever it is you are trying to
counter balance. The engine is mounted slightly to the right in the
engine bay and since it is definitely heavier than the driver, mounting
the battery in the left rear corner would seem more beneficial. This of
course, is open to debate and I welcome any arguments to the contrary.

I'm sure Andy has been itching to point this out ;) so I think I'll do
him a favour by saying that further information on the install can be
found at
http://www.panix.com/~aqn/GTI_VR6/gti_vr6/archive/electrical/moving_battery.html

I did a short write up of the install way back then with the promise of
photographs later. Since I don't have the time to do that right now
(going home for Christmas) this'll have to wait till I get back. Feel
free to email me for help though.

Eugene Oh
--
For info on: how to subscribe & unsubscribe, the list's tech/how-to
    library, etc.  see:   http://www.panix.com/~aqn/GTI_VR6/gti_vr6_list/

Moving a sixty pound battery back 10 feet has the same effect on
weight distribution as moving a 600 pound engine back one foot.
The effect on handling would be more than just noticeable.
Remember that you are not just adding a counterweight to the rear
of the car; you are also removing that mass from way in front.

Why don't those who have moved their batteries back report on the
effectives of this mod?

The stock GTi's handling is compromised exactly because the heavy
engine is mounted so far forward.  That is done to keep a little
crush space in front of you, should you be involved in a front
end crash.  Speaking of which, make sure that your battery is
attached very securely in its new location.  I sure as heck would
not like to be struck on the back of the head by a battery that
came loose in an otherwise survivable front ender.

Peter
--
For info on: how to subscribe & unsubscribe, the list's tech/how-to
    library, etc.  see:   http://www.panix.com/~aqn/GTI_VR6/gti_vr6_list/

>can anyone comment on whether or not having the driver magnet for the
>sub directly next to the battery would affect either of them?

No, it wouldn't effect either one.  The Optima battery doesn't even use 
lead plates like a standard battery.  They use some sort of fiberglass 
matrix, instead.  Anyway, even lead is non-magnetic, so even a regular 
battery wouldn't cause any problems...


-Holland

&#104;jp&#64;pacbell<img src=/i/dn.gif border=0 width=35 height=15>


--
For info on: how to subscribe & unsubscribe, the list's tech/how-to
    library, etc.  see:   http://www.panix.com/~aqn/GTI_VR6/gti_vr6_list/

I was up late running the power cable to relocate the battery to the trunk.
 It's a little easier than I expected in terms of placement and attachment
points.

On the driver side hatch area, there's a cubby hole perfect for a Optima
sized dry cell without getting in the way of storage.  I had my CD changer
there and have to find a new home for that.  The negative connection can be
stolen from the rear seatbelt bolt and a simple battery hold down can be
modified from an off the shelf kit battery bolt kit.

I got a Summit Racing (yup) battery cable kit for $41+ship.  It's got 16'
(red) 1 gauge,  3' (black) 1 gauge, side posts, copper lugs,  Adel clamps
and minor mounting items than I won't be using.  Not a bad deal.

Jim
--
For info on: how to subscribe & unsubscribe, the list's tech/how-to
    library, etc.  see:   http://www.panix.com/~aqn/GTI_VR6/gti_vr6_list/

I use 100 to 120 amp fuses or (preferably, since they have less voltage loss) 
circuit breakers when moving Optimas to the rear of the vehicle.  I suggest 
2ga. wire (and there's plenty of room in an A3 GTiVR6), more if there's a 
large need (like stereo).  Remember, the power for the battery and everything 
on the battery's cabling still must come from the alternator under the hood, 
and the fuse is only to protect the wiring itself, not any components.  Stock 
VR6 alternator supports 120 amps, BTW.
What I do when relocating an optima:
Marine distribution blocks at stock battery location (makes it easier and 
allows for uninstalls later).
Upgraded wiring to/from alternator and starter (I do this anyhow- saves 
batteries and starters in a BIG way, especially when cold).
1 circuit breaker per wire back.  In my personal VR6, I have 3 100 amp cicuit 
breakers for the amplifiers protecting a 2ga. wire (Sub amp) and two 4 ga. 
wires (front channel amp and rear channel amp).  Overkill?  Yes.  Voltage 
loss?  Almost none.
I can't stress this enough- use oversized and HIGH QUALITY stranded wire 
(ropelay construction).  Much easier to work with, and less voltage loss.

Ok, I'm anal, but high-end wiring has always been a specialty of mine.  I 
have in stock several options, like circuit breakers and large fuse holders 
(ANL I think).  Any good high-end stereo shop can help you out as well.

Let me know if I can help anyone out.
Mark Rosenkrantz
&#77;arker510&#64;aol<img src=/i/dc.gif border=0 width=35 height=15>
[...] 33 lines deleted

Brett Carter &lt;&#98;rett&#64;kavi<img src=/i/dc.gif border=0 width=35 height=15>&gt; wrote:
> 
>     >> Anyone out there with a bentley want to look up the amperage draw of 
>     >> the vr6 starter motor.
> 
>     aqn>   Yeah and if anybody can find that info in your copy of
>     aqn>   Bentley, please let me know as well, 'cause mine doesn't
>     aqn>   have that info.  |-)
> 
> Once, when I was removing an alarm out of my car, I had to splice the
> starter cable.  It's only like 10ga wire or something.

  Are you very sure about that?  My Bentley shows the wire
  going from the battery to the starter to be something like
  25.0 or 26.0 mm2 i.e.  equivalent to a AWG #2 wire.  Ditto
  the battery's main ground wire.  If it is only an AWG #10
  I don't think I would have deliberated for so long about
  moving my battery...

>     >> I am moving my battery to the trunk and need 
>     >> this number to decide which guage of wiring to get.
> 
> 8ga or 6ga is widely availiable at stereo installation shops; It's not
> fun to run to the back.  There's space on either side of the car under
> the door sill, but not much for 2 8GA wires.  I have an 8ga run for
> the amps in the back of my car.

  Multi-strand wires are very flexible so manipulating them
  is not tough.  I checked it out at a local car stereo place.

  But you're right about the space requirement.  A 1/0 gauge
  wire is about 0.6" in diameter i.e. pretty porky.  I plan
  to use Rockford-Fosgate flat 1/0 wire which would help
  some.  "Flat" is relative; in this case "flat" just means
  "oblong" instead of "round", "flat braid".

  I saw a reference on the Web to a StreetWires X Series
  "Ultraflow Power Cable" (http://www.eau.com/sw/xultra/) that
  looks to be flat braided and is available in 1/0 gauge, but
  I can't seem to find any retailer on the Web or locally who
  carries it.

> Why not use a 60A fuse, or just move the stock fuse to the back?

  The thing is, in the stock set-up there is no fuse between
  the battery's + terminal and the starter (the solenoid,
  actually).  That's probably that wire run is quite short.

  Since the battery is going to be in the back, I need a fuse
  near the battery's + terminal to guard against the wire
  shorting against the chassis along the way in case of an
  accident or in case of wear and tear.

> Again, 60A fuses are redily available at stereo shops.  I've got a 40A
> in my car right now.

  Is that in the battery-to-starter circuit, or is it for
  amplifiers?

> Moving your battery to the hatch seems kind of silly to me.  A sealed
> optima can't weigh more than 50lbs, which is less than 2% of the
> weight of the car.  For all the PITA it would be to move it, I doubt
> there'd be any difference in handling, or weight distrobution.  Why
> not just get one of those lightweight batteries?

  There is a 23 lbs difference between my current battery and
  the Black Panther gel cell battery that I will install.
  But since the 17' or so of 1/0 gauge wire will probably
  weigh 6-7 lbs, I'm not hoping to save a lot of weight.  It's
  the change in weight distribution that I'm after.  The weight
  distribution will go from about 65/35 to about 63.5/36.5
  See:

	http://www.gti-vr6.net/aqn/mycar/weighing.html

  In any case, even though the goal is moving the weight
  distribution more rearward, the purpose is to improve my
  car's turning in & direction changes.   The analogy is
  swinging a big weight at arm's length (battery way in front)
  versus swinging it while holding it next to the body (battery
  towards the middle of the car).

  I also drive a BMW 528 which weighs about 600 lbs more than
  my GTI VR6, yet it turns in better because it actually
  carries LESS weight on the front tires than my GTI VR6
  (1750 lbs. versus 1820 lbs.).

  Moving 50 lbs from WAY OUT in front of the front axle back
  to the middle of the car is a big deal, for me.  In most
  cars, the battery is way out front.  In the GTI VR6, the
  battery is almost 2 feet in front of the front axle.
  (Additionally, the entire VR6 engine/transmission is in
  front of the front axle!) Moving the battery back (but not
  TOO far back, which would cause the same problem as a battery
  being too far out front, to a lesser degree) equates to much
  less weight that has to be swung about as car turns about
  its yaw axis.

  Still, given the weight on the front of the GTI VR6, moving
  the battery may or may not do a lot.  I personally believe
  it will do amazing things to the steering response/directional
  change response.  A 50 pounds weight sitting way out there
  can't be good.  (And hey, people feel that adding a front
  stress bar right next to the firewall results in a noticeable
  difference, so I'm more than entitled to my conjecture!  |-)

  In any case, it will have a huge psychological effect
  on me.  I _BELIEVE_ it will do a lot of good, therefore
  it will.  |-)



-- 
Andy Nguyen \ &#97;qn&#64;panix<img src=/i/dc.gif border=0 width=35 height=15> \ http://www.panix.com/~aqn/

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~>
eGroups is now Yahoo! Groups
Click here for more details
http://us.click.yahoo.com/kWP7PD/pYNCAA/4ihDAA/m7OVlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------_->

To post a message, send it to:   &#103;ti-vr6b&#64;eGroups<img src=/i/dc.gif border=0 width=35 height=15>

To unsubscribe, send a blank message to: &#103;ti-vr6b-unsubscribe&#64;eGroups<img src=/i/dc.gif border=0 width=35 height=15> 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

Andy, don't forget- the wiring between the alternator and battery have 2 
power sources..... I wasn't clear, but you need to fuse both ends.  Proper 
fuses or circuit breakers will be critical to lessen voltage drop.  As far as 
wiring, I haven't had good luck with the "flattened" type of wires.  BTW, 
even in a heavy GTiVR6, you'll notice the weight difference shift with a good 
suspension.

Mark Rosenkrantz
&#77;arker510&#64;aol<img src=/i/dc.gif border=0 width=35 height=15>

[...] 15 lines deleted

    aqn>   Are you very sure about that?  My Bentley shows the wire
    aqn>   going from the battery to the starter to be something like
    aqn>   25.0 or 26.0 mm2 i.e.  equivalent to a AWG #2 wire.  Ditto
    aqn>   the battery's main ground wire.  If it is only an AWG #10
    aqn>   I don't think I would have deliberated for so long about
    aqn>   moving my battery...

Now that I think about it, it's probably just the cable that goes to
the starter relay.  

Also note that when I was talking about space limitations, I'm
talking about getting from the firewall to the door sills.  There's no
frickin room back there at all.  My cables barely fit back there at
at all.


    aqn>   Since the battery is going to be in the back, I need a fuse
    aqn>   near the battery's + terminal to guard against the wire
    aqn>   shorting against the chassis along the way in case of an
    aqn>   accident or in case of wear and tear.

Yep, excatly why I have a 40A fuse at the :start: of my cable run to
the back of the car, for my amplifiers.  It's one of the smaller ones
they had. 

    aqn>   There is a 23 lbs difference between my current battery and
    aqn>   the Black Panther gel cell battery that I will install.
    aqn>   But since the 17' or so of 1/0 gauge wire will probably
    aqn>   weigh 6-7 lbs, I'm not hoping to save a lot of weight.  It's
    aqn>   the change in weight distribution that I'm after.  The weight
    aqn>   distribution will go from about 65/35 to about 63.5/36.5
    aqn>   See:

So you've changed your weight ratio by about 1% (after the weight of
the wire is taken into account.), or about 40lbs. 
I'm betting a hatch full of groceries is about 40lbs, and I :know: a
passenger is more than that, and I can't tell the difference when
either are in my car.  :shrug:

    aqn>   In any case, even though the goal is moving the weight
    aqn>   distribution more rearward, the purpose is to improve my
    aqn>   car's turning in & direction changes.   The analogy is
    aqn>   swinging a big weight at arm's length (battery way in front)
    aqn>   versus swinging it while holding it next to the body (battery
    aqn>   towards the middle of the car).

Yep, but angular acceleration is directly proportional to mass.  So
you've made it take 1% less force to turn the car.

    aqn>   I also drive a BMW 528 which weighs about 600 lbs more than
    aqn>   my GTI VR6, yet it turns in better because it actually
    aqn>   carries LESS weight on the front tires than my GTI VR6
    aqn>   (1750 lbs. versus 1820 lbs.).

Well, why don't you just drive around that granny car then.  (read: me
acting out extreme jelousy)

Well, I'm curious to see the results of this... but I wouldn't do it
to my car :)
-Brett

RE: lightweight batteries - I second the Oddyssey recommendation. But they
get *much* lighter than what the other fellow mentioned. I have 3 different
cars which are all running off of Oddyssey 14lb. batteries (not sure of
model # offhand), They start and run the cars fine, including a 2.3L DOHC
Honda Prelude motor.  Cost is about $60-80 depending on where you get it
(*not* at Racer wholesale or Porterfields... they are way overpriced).
There are some good places listed on the Hawker Energy website (who
actually makes these). I mount them in the passenger compartment usually on
the floor behind pass. seat, works out great, no box needed. I usually run
a 100 amp 12v circuit breaker for the positive line leading to the engine
compartment. These are available from good car audio stores for $25 or so.
(Monster Cable makes them I think).

Good luck,
- -Ed Sawyer